I have been reading through The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis. What a genius! God truly blessed this man with a way of crafting words and language to impact his readers. Lewis communicated in a manner which he could to speak simple truths to children (through novels and fantasies) and also speak truth to the highly educated at an academic level. His works challenge us to think about things differently and to see our world through a lucid and firm logic. One of his many fascinating logical presentations revolves around the idea of God’s omnipotence. Lewis chose to deal with this particular subject in response to an argument used by individuals seeking to find an explanation for pain and needless suffering.
The argument sounds something like this.
“If God is all powerful, why is there pain in the world? For if He is all powerful and there is needless suffering in the world then he can not also be, ALL GOOD. If He is “all good” and there is suffering in the world then He can not be all powerful because, if He does not remove suffering. Therefore, He must either be evil or limited.”
This is one of the major questions that atheists struggle with. Although you may simply dismiss this statement, please realize that Professor Lewis, as an atheist earlier in his life, says that this was one of his fundamental problems with believing that there was a God.
What do you make argument? Is it accurate? Why or why not?
I will not give you the explanation Lewis uses yet. I may even make you read the book your self.
17 comments:
I actually agree with this argument. It is very difficult for me to see how a supreme being could possibly be loving and still permit evil and pain to continue to exist.
I don't think pain is a problem. I do think there are a lot of whiners out there. No one ever asks, "Why do good things happen to bad people?" Isn't that equally "unjust?" Yet no one uses that as an argument that God isn't good.
Asking that I experience no adversity because there is a benevolent supreme being is being a bit of a prima donna.
The goal of Christian living is to become more Christ-Like. The "laboratory" of life includes both good things and bad things. When I respond to both the good and the bad in a Christ-Like manner, I "grow up" spiritually.
So my comment is, stop whining and start living.
There's an opinion for you!
Thanks for your post, I appreciate you insight. I agree there are a lot of whiners out there. Also, I like what you said about people not choosing to ask “Why do good things happen to bad people?” This made me think of the idea that no one questions God’s goodness until they are unhappy or in pain. It is also interesting that these are the time that Gods call volume increases. “When things are not going my way that is when I want Gods ear.” Might also be worth noting that this appears to be a very self centered perspective, where are we when we see the pain of others and who often do cry out to God or intercede on their behalf?
But I guess that the one thing I have to conceder in this conversation are the types or degrees of pain and suffering (Some of which may have absolutely no foundation or logical basis). I can see a direct relationship between someone who skydives and breaks her leg. I would expect his situation would not elicit a lot of pity or concern form others. But if I were to submit that someone I know has intestinal cancer, a simple “buck up and stop wining” my not suffice.
What do we do with the situations that deal with pain inflicted by others or suffering that is the result of a disease (both of which are primarily out of our control)?
Anonymous -
Thanks for your comment. I hope to hit a little more on this topic as time goes by. But if I touch too much on it at this point the conversation may be over in a few statements, which would not be as beneficial long term.
Sincerely -
Jim
When God created the heavens and the earth, and humanity; He made everything perfect. However, He did not make us to be automatons, or rather mindless beings that he could not have a real relationship with. He created us with free will. When man defied God in the Garden of Eden, sin entered the world. When sin entered the world, so did pain.
Now we being creatures of free choice, we often make choices that affect everyone around us. Sometimes these choices cause pain to others. Pain can vary in degree and in type. Regardless, pain is a result of decisions of free thinking creatures and/or a result of an unfortunate disease. Disease and other sources of pain, that are not a result of a person’s choice, is a result of the sin that entered into the world. When man sinned in the Garden of Eden; we showed God that we did not need Him, we in one simple act, told God that we could do just fine without Him. This act of sin separated us from God. We entered into a fallen world with Satan and his fallen angels. We entered into a world destined for pain and death. However needless and wrong suffering may seem to be; it is the world we live in.
We could say that pain is a horrible thing, and it is. However, who are we to say what needless suffering is? Have there not been those in times past that have undergone “needless suffering”, and have said that it was a good thing? Now I am not saying that there are persons that deserve to suffer; what I am saying is that if God were to wipe out all pain and suffering, what would we learn from? What would there be to show us that there is goodness? Since, man has fallen out of fellowship with God; he has no way of knowing what Goodness is without pain. Pain is a reminder of the world we live in; a fallen world without God.
There is, however, good news of an All Good and All Powerful God. We have God’s promise that if we have a relationship with Him; we will again one day be without pain and suffering; if only after a short time on this planet. It is then when we have a relationship with Christ that we know that out of pain comes growth. Pain is a teacher to the Christian; it is through pain that we learn. Without pain, there is no growth, no way of learning.
To conclude my thoughts about pain; I say that pain is resultant of a choice made by a free willed creation. If we were created and not given a choice to obey or defy God, we then would be beings not much different than that of a dog. There can be no fellowship with a dog. There cannot be a meeting of the minds, no conversations. We would simply be automatons, robots to God. Simply receiving commands and doing as God wished. He would not have a creation to fellowship with. He would not have a loving creation. For that is why He created us, out of His Great Love. We are a free willed creation that is capable of choice with results; the first choice resulting in pain and suffering. The next choice is left up to the rest of humanity to make; the choice to have a relationship with God and have an everlasting life without the pain and suffering.
Re: Jim's comment, You're right. We don't want to come across as insensitive to other's suffering.
Re: Johnnymac's comment, I'm not sure I could sit still long enough to write all of that out, but I agree with your premise - we are observing a world that exhibits the consequences of free will. I also believe that people who make Godly choices are spared a great deal of pain - both emotional, physical, and otherwise.
Re:derby family's comment; I agree, we are spared a great deal of pain when making Godly choices.
John –
Hey Bud. Good to here from you. How did you locate my page?
These are great thoughts and a good basis for discussion. Your argument resembles some of what Lewis says in his book. Have you read The Problem of Pain?
At one point you mention, “Have there not been those in times past that have undergone “needless suffering”, and have said that it was a good thing?” This implies that suffering may not be bad because good can be the result of pain and suffering. I agree with this if you are saying, God is able to take the bad things we experience in life and use them for our good. However, a few months ago, I ran into a problem with a similar argument presented by a Budist/Newage philosopher that I interact with. He used the argument to demonstrate the absence of good and evil. He claimed that the duality of good and evil does not actually exist but instead they are the same thing (there is no good or evil there is just existence). But that is a discussion for another time.
The second statement that I would like to touch on is the idea that we do not know what good is with out pain. To some extend what you are referring to is knowledge gained on the basis of contrast and comparison. I whole heartedly agree that the best way to know something is to know what it is not. However, if you say that we cannot not know good unless we know what pain is, you need to acknowledge that the same argument has been used to say, “Good can not exist with out Evil” which tends to be a slippery slope. Not sure how familiar you are with the “Tao” (interesting philosophy and correct about some things but completely off base in other areas) but if we are not careful we end up adopting this philosophy with out realizing its implications or practical out come. Not that you are saying this at all but it is important to realize where our assumptions could lead us or those around us.
Have some other thoughts to add but I will conclude with this. You said that pain is the result of the fall? Is it possible that there was pain before the fall? In Genesis when Yahweh speaks to Eve He says, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children.” What do you make of this? Is it possible that pain in some form existed not as a result of the fall but just as part of being native to a “physical” universe?
Thanks again for posting, looking forward to interacting with you.
Jim
Yes, I do mean to say that God uses the pain we experience in life for our good.
I have read, “The Problem of Pain”. C.S. Lewis is very eloquent with the way that he writes about the issue of Pain. He is perhaps the most prolific writer of the 20th century.
I am also aware of “Taoism”, and some of the argumentations made by other eastern religions; and by no means do I intend to go down the path of making a fallacious argument, such as a “Slippery Slope”. If it appears that I am close to making a fallacious argument, then I thank you for the warning to acknowledge such.
As far as I was saying about we cannot know good without pain…. Well I am not in anyway referring to “Good cannot exist without evil”… What I am saying is that we live in a fallen world full of sin…. The evil and pain that we experience in life is a reminder of the good that we have fallen away from.
God is All Good and All Powerful… He created us as free morale creatures capable of making moral choices. We made a choice to sin, to defy him. We made a choice to live in the world that we live in; a world of pain and suffering, an evil world. We entered a world of evil…. Pain is a result of sin. The evil is a result of straying from an All Good God. We strayed away from moral good, a standard by which evil is measured. We could say that God is all powerful, and He is, and could have made us as free morale creatures with no possibility of doing wrong; but that would be self defeating. We cannot be both free morale creatures and not have the ability to make a wrong decision at the same time; it is a self defeating argument. However, since we were made free moral creatures, we then are open to making wrong choices. And wrong choices can result in pain, suffering, and even evil. This reminds us that there is a standard for which we have strayed from. Good does exist, but not because evil exists. On the contrary, evil exists because there has been a straying away from good. Because we were made as free morale creatures capable of making wrong decisions by a good God; and have strayed from what was good.
“To say something is evil is to make a moral judgment, and moral judgments make no sense outside of the context of a moral standard. Evil as a value judgment marks a departure from that standard of morality. If there is no standard, there is no departure. “ (Greg Koukl, Evil as Evidence for God)
I hope that this might explain what I was saying. But if not, here are some sources that may show better what I am saying. Greg Koukl also refutes premises made by eastern religions, such as Taoism.
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=6023
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5264
I too look forward to interacting with you.
John
To All -
What types of pain could be worse for Christians than others? I can see how Christ saves us from ultimate and final pain but it seems to me that there are situations that pain and suffering are worse for a believer than for a non-believer.
- JRW
Hmm...Jim, could you expound a bit more on the last comment made? Also, the question about pain before the fall is a good one...and I would like to get to that soon.
I would also like to say, I am glad to have found your blog. It has been quite a long time since I've had anyone to interact with on this level of discussion. Truly a blessing.
By the way....it was my wife, Erica, that found your blog. I'm sure you remember Erica Bowerman? We are married now!!
Anyway, it's great to be interacting with you again!!
Hi guys. (I'm assuming you're all guys.)
Greg Laurie, radio pastor, made these comments in a message I heard this morning.
1. All suffering is a result of sin, Adam and Eve's sin, and doesn't reflect the way God originally wanted to do things.
2. God wants voluntary love (ref. johnnymac's comment about free will).
3. God can use all suffering for his glory.
4. God sometimes uses suffering to get our attention.
5. God can remove suffering.
The message was called "Making God Known - Bringing People to Faith." You can learn more about Greg at www.harvest.org.
RE: derby family...
Thanks, I have bookmarked Greg Laurie's site. You can never have too many references and resources. Do you listen to the Calvary Satellite Network? Greg Laurie is on there, and many other great pastors.
Re: Calvary Satellite Network
I haven't connected yet. Out here (southern California) I can get radio station K-Wave which I listen to all the time. I suspect the messages are also on the network. I also like Pastor Rosales, Pastor Hennigraph, Pastor Hocking, and the one who laughs at his own jokes.
P.S. We haven't heard from Ananymous again. I trust he/she is still considering this issue. I think it's important to note that God doesn't intend to allow evil and pain to continue. He does have a plan for "ending it all."
I think it is interesting (and I apoogize for commenting past the main line of talking and commenting) to look into how the problem of pain/evil in the world has been explained.
I'm taking a course in Philosophy and Theology in Film in which we viewed a movie entitled, The Elephant Man. Very depressing and sad--but insightful. Anyways I just wanted to post Augustine's thoughts on Theodicy (or the justification of God--why He 'permits' evil/pain)
Theodicy- Justification of God permitting evil
1. Free will defense- evil is a consequence of free will (choice is essential. Choosing right and wrong are essential. Otherwise we would all be robots, choosing wrong would be evil)
2. Greater good defense- evil is necessary to achieve certain goods
a. pain of an infant immunization; the child receives an immunization to help them
b. certain virtues possible only in a bad situation (mercy, compassion, courage)
c. soul is developed (if everything was easy, you end up a shallow, selfish person) evil is needed to develop people.
3. Best of all possible worlds- God does the best because He is the best. Thus this must be the best and we just don’t understand it.
Continuing the thought - The world didn't start out with pain in it and it won't end with pain in it - So what do we do with the interim and how does it affect our theology?
I think we should stay away from saying that God "causes" evil. He permits it, and we choose to believe that in dealing with it, God's purposes are accomplished in our lives.
There is probably a distinction between pain and evil. I wouldn't agree that evil is needed to accomplish certain goods. I do believe that pain is needed to accomplish certain goods.
I don't believe that a world with evil in it is God's best. It's not what He wanted for his people. He wanted Eden for his people, and later, he will create a new heaven and a new earth for his people.
For now, though, God uses our circumstances, which sometimes create pain and may be the result of evil, to shape us into Christlike people who will trust him more.
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